Feng Xin: Professor Liu, you once said we need to take the Budget Law from the secrete altar to ordinary people's lives, because it's related to everyone. Why did you say this? How is a country's budget relevant to individuals?

刘剑文：我们的预算长期以来是不公开的，老百姓对于预算问题不大了解。因为预算是涉及到国家的一个财政计划，就是像一个家庭一样的，我这一个家庭，每年每月每日有多少收入，有多少支出是一样的道理。从收的方面，国家的收入主要来自哪些方面。一个核心问题是税收问题，还有一个收费问题。因为国家收得越多，意味着老百姓手中的财富越少。它是一个相互关联很强的问题。

Liu Jianwen: Our budgeting has always been opaque, so people do not know much about it. Budget is a country's financial plans – just like a family – how much money do we make and spend every day, month and year? From an income point of view, the core of a country's income is levies and charges. The more money the country taxes, the less wealth the people have. There's a strong correlation.

冯欣：此消彼长的关系？

Feng Xin: Like a counter balance?

刘剑文：对，像我们大家关心的问题，像个人所得税的问题、房产税的问题、车船税的问题，这是大家感觉非常明显的。那么从支的方面来讲，教育，特别是义务教育，义务教育的经费从哪里来，它得靠国家的财政支出。还有我们现在讲的社保问题，甚至包括我们说，在一个地方政府，这个地方政府有多少公职人员，为什么要这些公职人员，每一个公职人员以什么标准给他付工资？还有其他方面。因为这些公职人员是在为纳税人服务，是我纳税人，通过纳税养活这些你这些公职人员，那么你说他们要不要有发言权？

Liu Jianwen: Yes. For example, people feel strong about issues like personal income tax, property tax and vehicle tax. In terms of spending, education, especially compulsory education, and social security insurance all come from the country's spending. To go even further, in a local government, the number of civil servants, why they are hired and based on what criteria they are paid are all to do with government expenditure, because these civil servants are paid by taxpayers. They provide services to taxpayers. Then, don't you think they should have a say?

我们现在是市场经济，市场经济所相应的是公共财政，所谓公共财政是强调这个收入是老百姓的，要由老百姓说了算，要由纳税人说了算。他通过什么东西说了算呢？那就是通过立法，通过预算（法）。这个支出也应该是由老百姓说了算，由纳税人说了算。如果说支出过程中，其他的家庭成员都不知道，一个国家让所有人都不知道我这个钱是怎么花的，我想把钱给谁就给谁，我想把钱投到什么地方就投到什么地方，那你就可以想一想这个过程中，这个支出里会不会产生腐败问题。

We are now operating under a market economy, so that should be matched with a public finance system. A public finance system emphasizes that the income belongs to the people. And they should decide how to use the money. How can they decide? Through legislature and through the Budget Law. The expenditure should also be decided by people, or the taxpayers. If, during the process of spending, no family member knows how it's done – the country doesn't let anyone know – it gives the money to whomever and wherever it wants- it won't be hard to imagine that there will be problems of corruption.

冯欣：我们这次知道人大收到了来自全国两万多公民的33万多条建议和意见，是历史上第二多的一次。但是在我们的街访中发现，很多普通市民根本没有听说过《预算法》，我想问问您制定《预算法》的目的到底是什么？《预算法》这样一部法是用来做什么的？

Feng Xin: We know the NPC has received nearly 330,000 comments and suggestions from 20,000 citizens nationwide. That's the second most in history. But during our street interviews, we found many ordinary people have never even heard of the Budget Law, so what is the purpose of making such a law? What is it used for?

刘剑文：因为你立法的宗旨是决定这个法要解决什么问题，就是这个法的灵魂。我们1994年的《预算法》，当时立法宗旨是这样规定的，我这里有一条：“为了强化预算的分配和监督职能，健全国家对预算的管理，加强国家宏观调控，保障经济和社会的健康发展，根据宪法制定本法。” 这样一种规定，应该说在20世纪90年代初期这样规定我们觉得还是很合适的。它是强调国家对预算的一个管理，强调一个宏观调控。这里实际上是强调对政府内部收支方面的一个管理。

Liu Jianwen: The purpose of a law depends on what problems we want to solve. It's the soul of a law. We established the current Budget Law in 1994, which specified the law's purpose: "In accordance with the Constitution and for the purposes of strengthening the distribution and supervisory function of budget, improving the budget management of the State, intensifying the micro-scope regulation and control of the State and ensuring the sound socio-economic development, this Law is enacted." In fact, such general provisions were proper in the early 1990s. It emphasizes the government's regulation and control of the State budget. It actually emphasizes the government's management of its internal affairs.

冯欣：就是政府的家务事？

Feng Xin: Like the government's family affairs?

刘剑文：是说政府的一个问题，政府内部的一个事情。但是我们从94年到现在已经快20年了，特别我们国家在90年代末期，在1998年提出公共财政的问题，变态版天剑狂刀，大家强调《预算法》应该解决什么问题？《预算法》究竟是政府内部的、规范政府内部行为的一个法律？还是来控制政府行为的一个法律？所以大家一个基本的观念是我们《预算法》的核心问题是应该（建立）一个规范政府收支行为的法律。